As a farmer, you work from dawn to dusk. You plan. You budget. You worry. You sweat. You hope. You pray. And yet, one stroke of a pen in Washington, DC can do as much to make or break your profitability as the thousands of hours you devote to your crop each season.
If you believe...
the future of the soybean and corn industry is critically important to the success of US farmers...
Congress has a lot to say about whether or not you make money...
grain farmers need to have strong representation on Capitol Hill...
News from NCGA
USTRs Final Actions on 301 Shipbuilding an Improvement, NCGA Says (Fri, 18 Apr 2025)
The Office of the United States Trade Representative on Thursday released final actions related to Section 301 fees on Chinese-made vessels arriving at American ports, making significant changes from the initial proposed actions. The development comes after the National Corn Growers Association (NCGA) called for USTR to consider the impacts that the fees would have on farmers and provided suggestions for improvement. While direct impacts on agriculture are still being determined, the final proposal is a step in the right direction to mitigate impacts on shipments of commodities, which directly impact corn growers, say agricultural leaders. “Our concern all along has been that any fees placed on Chinese vessels could be passed on to American farmers who rely on those ships to export corn,” said NCGA President Kenneth Hartman Jr. “While we are still working to understand how this new version will impact the corn industry, we believe this final action is more workable than the initial proposal.” NCGA estimated that the original proposal could have cost corn growers as much as $0.64 per bushel, which translates to 14% higher costs from current price levels. The added cost had the potential to reduce U.S. corn exports and impede market access. Instead, the released action specifies that fees will be assessed on Chinese vessel operators and Chinese-built ships per voyage, not per port call, as was originally proposed. Additionally, fees cannot be imposed more than five times per year. And short voyages, vessels arriving empty, and vessels carrying less than 50,000 tons will be exempt from the fees. The action will occur in two phases to allow businesses to adjust, and for the first 180 days, applicable fees will be set at zero. The restrictions are an outgrowth of the Trump administration’s efforts to address a report showing China has given its shipbuilding and maritime industry an unfair advantage through financial support, barriers for foreign firms, intellectual property theft, procurement policies and forced technology transfers. To address the issue, the Office of the United States Trade Representative issued a proposal in March to place fees and other restrictions on Chinese vessels.
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EP. 53 - Tax Policy Updates Corn Farmers Need to Know About in 2025 (Tue, 15 Apr 2025)
We need our reps in D.C. to protect the helpful policies and throw out the bad ones. It’s tax day, but some of the important policies that are helping your farm maintain profitability are in jeopardy if the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2017 is allowed to expire this year. Provisions like the Qualified Business Income Deduction, 100% Bonus Depreciation, and the increased Estate Tax Exemption are critically important to producers across the country. So in this episode, we’re talking with two of NCGA’s foremost experts about how these policies benefit farmers… and what we can do to preserve them. Andy Jobman is a farmer from Gothenburg, Nebraska, and chairs NCGA’s Risk Management Action Team, which has been researching the effects of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act at the farm gate and building up our case to preserve it. And Wayne Stoskopf is NCGA’s Director of Public Policy, serving as the D.C. staff liaison for all matters involving tax policy. Together, they’ll explain why farmers can’t afford to lose these tax protections, what it means for rural communities, and why it’s critical for growers to contact their legislators about this issue. Direct Share Link: https://cms.megaphone.fm/channel/ncga?selected=PDM234462094 Transcript Andy Jobman Too many instances in the past, the tax burden of the next generation picking up the farm was too great. And you saw lots of people move off the farm. The Tax Cuts and Jobs Act has been big for America's farmers. Wayne Stoskopf So we want to make sure that we're talking about the importance of extending these provisions, keeping bad ideas out of the tax code. Dusty Weis Hello and welcome to the Cobcast: Inside the Grind with the National Corn Growers Association. This is where leaders, growers and stakeholders in the corn industry can turn for big picture conversations about the state of the industry and its future. From the fields of the corn belt to the DC Beltway, we're making sure the growers who feed America have a say in the issues that are important to them with key leaders who are shaping the future of agriculture. So make sure you're following this show and your favorite podcast app and sign up for the National Corn Growers Association newsletter at NCGA.com. I'm Dusty Weis and I'm just going to go ahead and wish everybody a happy Tax Day here… in that Tax Day could ever be a happy occurrence for anybody. But a quick reminder as well that if you haven't checked that off your to-do list yet, go ahead and step away from the podcast for a moment and finish up your duties there. We'll be here. We're not going to be talking about anything that is necessarily timely to your 2024 taxes yet. We're going to be looking to the future of tax policy and what it means for growers and some of the pieces that are set to expire this year with the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act. Joining us today to talk about these important issues are Nebraska farmer and chair of NCGA's Risk Management Action Team, Andy Jobman. Andy and his team have been preparing for this year's big tax conversations on Capitol Hill for a while now. Andy, first and foremost, great to see you again. It's been a minute. Last time we talked, we were actually in DC out there advocating on behalf of growers on a different issue, trade with Mexico, but it's good to see you again. How are things out in Gothenburg? Andy Jobman Hey, thanks for having me on. Great to see you again too. Yeah, things are well out here in Gothenburg and central Nebraska. Finally had some decent rain last night. I'm looking outside to a few puddles and it's been a while for some rain as well. Dusty Weis Thank goodness. You went from an unplantably dry mess to an unplantably wet mess. That's exciting times. Andy Jobman Yep, I'd rather have that kind of mess. Dusty Weis That's good, that's good. You'll have some work to do real soon, I bet. And joining Andy today, of course, is NCGA's policy expert on tax and farm policy, Wayne Stoskopf. He'll be helping give us the big picture for where this tax talk might lead and why the term “budget reconciliation” should be on our radar. So Wayne, thank you so much for joining us. Wayne Stoskopf Happy to be here. Thank you. Dusty Weis So Andy, can you get us kicked off a little bit by telling us more about your operation in Nebraska? Your family's been out there working that land for a while. Tell us more about what you're growing out there and what you're seeing. Andy Jobman So our operations, a family operation, like over 90 % of the farming operations across the US. I farm with my younger brother and my dad. And we raise food grade white and yellow corn for Frito Lay. So all of our corn actually goes toward human consumption through Frito Lay's various products like Doritos and Tostitos. We also rotate our corn with soybeans, grow a little bit of alfalfa to support our cow-calf operation as well. So a medium sized operation by any argument’s sake, almost a hundred percent irrigated. We do not get enough rain to rely on that alone. So most of our crops are supplemented with some sort of irrigation. A lot of that is center pivot irrigation. So, you know, as you're flying across the Midwest, going from coast to coast, you see the circles down below. That's us. Dusty Weis Bullseye marks the spot, right? Well, Andy, and I've got to say it's a beautiful farming operation as well. I was actually just telling Wayne that your operation in Gothenburg, Nebraska will forever be representative in my mind of NCGA because when I started working with NCGA, golly, like six years ago now... the first thing that I saw was a bunch of video footage that Neil Caskey sent me to edit together for a web video, and it was all shot on your farm. And so it really helped me get my head in the game as far as what's going on with our members, what their operations look like. But from what you do out there to what you do with NCGA, what got you interested then in NCGA's risk management work? Andy Jobman Well, that's a good question. Previously, I was on our stewardship action team and was involved in conservation programs, different cost share programs that allowed farmers to implement sustainability practices on their farms. And some of that is tied back into the farm bill. After I kind of went through the leadership position on that, I had an interest in the risk management team, you know, also very heavily involved in the farm bill. Also involved with taxes as well. And, you know, when I started farming professionally, like, you know, not just carpet farming back in the day, but when I started farming professionally, we were going through a lot of changes in farm programs. That's, you know, when ARC and PLC kind of came into being. And so I remember as a young producer, going through all of the education events that universities and different extension offices would put on to educate producers on here's this new safety net program and how it works. And here's everything you need to know about which one to sign up for. I just remember that being a really kind of confusing and also fascinating time all at once and thought, you know, “Hey, this sounds like a really interesting team to be a part of since that's exactly what they focus on.” Dusty Weis It might not be the thing that most growers want to take an interest in, but where the rubber meets the road of the black and the red in the ledger at the end of the year, it's one of the most important things. Andy Jobman It really is, you know. We farm to survive on our own. We want good markets, want strong demand for our products and high prices. But ultimately we do need to have that safety net program to keep American farms in business from one year to the next and from one generation to the next. Yeah. Like you said, it's not obviously the most glamorous or exciting topics to talk about every single day, but they are very important and do require a lot of expertise and I'm thankful to have Wayne on staff. He's the man when it comes to not only the programs that we have, but also kind of the history and how we got to where we're at. So we certainly couldn't do what we do without Wayne's input. Dusty Weis I can imagine you guys have gotten to know each other real well over the past few years here, but Wayne, as the staff lead for risk management, working with Andy and the risk management action team, also as our resident expert on the subject, how do you help the team determine what to focus on for the future? And how early did you have to start preparing for tax policy changes that might be ahead here in 2025? Wayne Stoskopf It's certainly a balancing act of all sorts of farm policy, tax policy, changes in administrations, the political landscape. And we try to sprinkle in topics ahead of time. So it's not a big kind of bolus all at once where you're trying to digest everything all in one conversation. I'd say on tax policy, we really started digging in early in 2024 and then set up a project that then could provide us more information throughout the year as we were thinking about Congress beginning to put the wheels into place for this train that's going to leave the station later this year. A lot of folks are saying it's the Super Bowl of Tax for 2025. And we were in the mode for the last two years that we were in the Farm Bill. It's the Super Bowl of Farm Bill policy. It's the big arenas. So we've been trying to do both walk and chew gum and really, it took a lot of effort to just be at the point where we could start calling the plays in the Super Bowl that is happening now. Dusty Weis So tell me a little bit more about the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act then. This is something that's important to farmers, but why is that? Let's lay it out on the table what the benefits have been for America's growers here. Andy Jobman Yeah. So the tax cuts and jobs act has been a really big, helpful policy item for America's farmers and ranchers. This comes as no surprise to any producers that are listening, but farming is a very capital intensive industry. Land is expensive. Machinery is expensive. All of the inputs are expensive. You know, when you start talking about running these operations as businesses, tax is a huge item, especially when you're passing an operation from one generation to the next. And recently, you know, we've had some lower commodity prices, right? So profitability hasn't been there. We've relied on not only our farm programs, but also lot of disaster and economic assistance programs to help shore up these losses across much of the growing regions across the United States. Obviously, we're always looking for new markets, new opportunities to grow that demand. Biofuels and trade and livestock consumption are three main buckets of where corn grain goes, right? And, you know, one exciting opportunity we have is sustainable aviation fuel possibly in the future. So that's one opportunity we have. But the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act has really helped provide a lot of security and stability in terms of having an operation decide, okay, how am going to keep this operation profitable? And how am I going to keep this operation moving from one generation to the next? Dusty Weis And Wayne, from your perspective in DC, the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, this is something that's been on the books for a number of years here, but it's due to expire, right? It was put forward as sort of a temporary provision here. When is it due to expire and what sort of deadline are we facing? Wayne Stoskopf Yeah, the provisions that Andy's talking about expire December 31st, stroke of midnight, the end of this year 2025. The Tax Cuts and Jobs Act overall also included a lot of really good provisions that have supported the economy on the corporate side. And many of those provisions are permanent, but the provisions on the individual side that impacts more of our farms, ranches, small businesses, a lot of those were set to expire at the end of this year. A few like bonus depreciation were stair-stepped down. So we've already seen an impact in the past couple of years of those provisions expiring a bit earlier. Dusty Weis So Andy, then as we're coming up on that expiration date and talks are getting underway in D.C. to extend potentially the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, what are some of the provisions that are a top priority for corn growers? Andy Jobman Yeah. So about a year ago, we started a study to really evaluate the most important ones to corn farmers and used example farms from across the country. Some of them are our own membership and looked at different sizes of farms too, right? Because there's all different kinds of farming operations out there. There's single household farm, multi-generational farms as well where you got several generations, several households living off of the same operation. And then operations even bigger than that, that have a lot of hired help. So we really broke it into three different categories based off of size and then evaluated how both extending and repealing these different facets of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act would affect each one of those operations. And I don't think necessarily we found anything to be incredibly surprising. Rather it solidified our arguments and the importance of these different tax code items, and maybe emphasized which ones are maybe even more important or had a greater effect than maybe even we imagined they would. Dusty Weis Well, why don't we start with the qualified business income deduction? What is that and how does that hit the bottom line at a family farm? Andy Jobman Yeah. So the qualified business income deduction allows an operation to deduct 20% of an income as a qualified deduction. And that helps level the playing field a little bit for farms that are not organized basically as a corporation, which is the majority of farms across the United States. And as we looked at that 20% sounds like a pretty good number, right? Like that's a sizable amount of any person's income, but really in our study, the effects of that actually wound up to be two to three times that in terms of what the actual dollar amount meant to different operations. And of course that varies a lot from year to year. In some instances that 20% may not be that big in terms of dollars. Maybe it wasn't a very profitable year, maybe it was a drought year or we had a hail event or, you know, crop insurance event where all of a sudden the income wasn't there. And so we found that item to really vary a lot from year to year and was very dependent upon the events and economic situation that each farm found itself in from year to year. But yeah, it was still a very important asset for each farm to be able to take advantage of. Dusty Weis Okay, there's another provision out there that we want to protect. It's called the 100% bonus depreciation. What's that one and what does that mean? I recognize that term. My accountant has said that to me, but I don't know what the heck it is. Andy Jobman Yeah. So depreciation is something that farmers take advantage of. And really many businesses across America take advantage of, right? So that's the ability to deduct the cost of a capital purchase. Say it's a large piece of machinery, like a combine or a tractor, or even a storage shop and deduct that cost over time. Well, the 100% allows you to deduct that amount in the year that it was placed in service. So like, say I bought a tractor last week, right? If I, at the end of the year, have had a really great year and I have higher than expected income, I can elect to take that depreciation 100% in this year. What that allows me to do is offset some of my tax liability that I would have this year, right? So rather than write my check and then pay my taxes, I'm going to in turn say, Hey, I'm actually going to count all of this year's purchase of that tractor in this year. And in some instances, this comes into play maybe more so towards the end of the year after I've evaluated what my profitability is for this year. Machinery is expensive, large items that we use every day. They wear out, they need to be replaced, right? We want to keep up with the most accurate and precise and efficient technology as we can because, you know, farming is a very small margin game. And so they can spend that dollar on main street America at their local dealership. That dollar is multiplied through the local economy. And that's why that 100% deduction exists. Taxes are important. We need tax income to fund defense, fund the government for roads, bridges, you know, what have you. But at the end of the day, if you find yourself in this position and also are in need of making a capital investment in your operation, here's a great way to offset some of that tax income but still be able to keep your operation moving forward and support local businesses at the same time. Dusty Weis Right, the grower gets a new piece of equipment, which very often is more efficient or even better for the environment. Let's make sure we don't miss that. But also the local dealer, they're able to create jobs of the people that sell and maintain that equipment. And then on up to the equipment manufacturer, the people that build that combine too, they're moving another piece of equipment out of the factory and helping support those good factory jobs as well. So it really runs all the way through the economy. Andy Jobman Yeah, one interesting thing that we found, you know, one might think like, well, this is really benefiting, just the very large producers. But honestly, even in our study, small and medium farms showed a 100 to 300% increase in tax liability when we didn't have this available. And so these farms would be burdened with much higher tax liabilities, still would have to be needing to purchase that new tractor, but all of a sudden weren't able to, right? Because they weren't able to offset that taxable income with the purchase. So it affected both small, medium and large operations, which I think was maybe a little bit of a surprise, just in terms of how much it actually impacted farms of all scales. Dusty Weis Yeah, that's an incredible figure right there, that 100 to 300 percent times tax liability. I mean, that can be the difference between profitability and a very, very bad year for a lot of folks. But another provision that we're interested in protecting here, of course, is the higher estate tax exemption. Now, this comes into play when an operation transitions between generations. Can you tell us a little bit about this and why it's important to preserve? Andy Jobman Yeah, absolutely. And in order to kind of understand this, we kind of have to walk through a little bit of where we were before and where we are, and then potentially where we're going. So before the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, an individual would be exempt upon their death, or they could exempt up to $5 million of assets when they transfer that asset onto their heirs. The Tax Cuts and Jobs Act effectively doubled that to $10 million per individual, and then indexed it for inflation. So really eventually that 10 million becomes 13 million as an individual, 26 million as a married couple. Sounds like a huge amount of money. And it is. Dusty Weis It would be a big pile of money, but we're talking about assets here. Talking about the ground that you grow in. We're talking about the machine shed out back. And it's not that those things have gotten bigger or nicer over the years. It's that the value has gone up. So when these transitions happen, it's not like somebody's getting a huge pile of money. They're getting the same operation that's been there for generations. It's just valued so much more now because of inflation. Andy Jobman That's 100 % correct. To an outsider looking in, it seems like an outrageous figure, right? But when you start breaking that down, one average field out here in central Nebraska on the market today would bring well in excess of $1 million. That's just one field. Most average operations probably have 10, 12, 15 fields, of an average size. And so you start adding that up. Plus, like you said, the cost of machinery, buildings, the value of everything is always going up. And so to be able to pass that on without having to start over with every generation is really important. This is also set to expire this year and it rolls back to the original amount, indexed for inflation would be about 7 million. So that's a huge difference, right? When you're talking about tax planning, family succession planning, like these are plans that most families and operations don't change daily, right? We can't change daily. Like most decisions in a farming operation about renting land or making a purchase of machinery or making an additional purchase of land. Like these are very, very long term plans. In many instances it’s not just planning for like my generation, but also planning for my kids' generation should they choose to come back and farm. Dusty Weis Well, and when you're talking about that estate tax exemption, that could be the difference between the next generation taking up the reins and continuing the family farm or even just throwing their hands up and walking away and saying, “I'm done. I'm to go get a job in town.” Andy Jobman Yeah. That's exactly right. Too many instances in the past, the tax burden of the next generation picking up the farm was too great. And you saw lots of people move off the farm, which is really unfortunate because we lost a lot of really great people in rural America and there's fewer people. Farms have to get bigger in order to survive. It's not necessarily that farms want to be thousands and thousands and thousands of acres big. Like that takes a lot of management, takes a lot of manpower. Lot of stress, a lot of risk. But unfortunately, like that's the situation we're in. It take some economies of scale to make these operations run. One interesting thing I thought that came out of this study that we did, when we looked at across America and all facets of businesses and lifestyles, when you compare the number of transfers of assets that are affected by the estate tax and compare that to agriculture, this instance affects agriculture twice as much as the average American household across the United States. And I think that just underscores what we've been talking about this entire segment is how capital intensive agriculture is and how important it is to be able to pass on these assets from one generation to the next in order to preserve these family farms and preserve these businesses. Dusty Weis So now, Wayne, as our expert in DC on these things, I know that we touched a little bit earlier about the stepped up basis, which is above and beyond just extending these key TCGA provisions. But what are some of those other proposed changes that corn growers are trying to defend against right now? Wayne Stoskopf When looking at the landscape, a lot of the changes that Andy's mentioned are pieces that will expire if Congress doesn't act. But the stepped up basis is part of the permanent law, but it has been looked at for changes to raise additional revenue for the federal government. And so we saw a serious push probably in 2021, about four years ago, to change the way the capital gains rates are structured and to eliminate stepped up basis. And while we don't think it's going to be part of the just straight extensions, we are still messaging against that proposal, which would negatively impact so many farms and that business planning. So we want to make sure that as we're educating new members of Congress and talking about the importance of extending provisions that we're also not missing that opportunity to educate on behalf of the importance of some of those permanent provisions and maintaining stepped up basis. Dusty Weis It sounds like we've really got to play defense in addition to trying to get the extension to the TCGA stuff as well. Andy, as far as corn growers’ priorities long term, we can do tax policy. We can focus on playing defense against some of these provisions that also might come into play that would cause real problems for us. But at the end of the day, the best way to improve the economic outlook for farmers is just to grind more corn. And tax policy can really stimulate demand in the long run too. How does that work? Andy Jobman Yeah, it sure can. As we're looking forward towards expanding that corn grind, there have been several ideas floated around for stimulating new methods of utilizing corn as a resource, particularly for sustainable aviation fuel and a lot of these next generation fuel ideas in terms of increasing blends at the pump, providing more opportunity for consumers to participate in the usage of a clean burning environmentally homegrown fuel. And so this would be a much more of an offensive forward-looking idea of let's incentivize folks to come up and participate in the corn market, expand usage, and at the same time, you know, really improve our energy portfolio for the United States and eventually globally too. Aviation affects everyone across the globe. So does liquid fuels. We've seen countless examples, whether it be economic or weather related, where we still are very dependent upon liquid fuels and probably will be for the foreseeable future. And if we can improve that system by including a cleaner burning renewable source, by all means, why shouldn't we do that? And so incentivizing industry to expand on that, I think is an excellent opportunity, increases jobs, increases demand for corn, creates a more profitable and economically viable midsection of the United States that also affects the pocketbooks of everyday Americans from coast to coast. Dusty Weis So certainly this is a time of year when most growers are focused on getting a crop in the ground. But it's also really, really important right now for growers to make their voices heard on these topics. We're lucky to have folks like Wayne out in the DC office that kind of manage the day to day of this. But corn growers and their supporters really need to carry this message to the offices on the hill. Yeah, Wayne? Wayne Stoskopf Absolutely. And we've launched a call to action earlier this year to provide some sample messages from growers that can go directly to your member of Congress. Emails, calls, texts are all fantastic. And of course, as members are back in their districts and in the states, it's a great opportunity to talk about the importance of extending these provisions, keeping bad ideas out of the tax code and for some of the tax incentive places, trying some new things too. Andy Jobman The most important voice on Capitol Hill when it comes to agriculture issues is the farmer. You know, we have Wayne up there to keep tabs on everyone in DC and on the Hill on a daily basis, but ultimately the most important voice is the farmers, right? That voice of experience, people that are living and breathing and getting personally affected by all the decisions, right? So far on this call to action, we've had pretty good response. We've had over a thousand folks participating. If you haven't participated, be sure to visit ncga.com, make your voice heard there. We've had really great staff that have made it super easy to get involved with the click of a button and a few strokes of the keypad to personalize your message if you would like to. And so we've found that to be a very, very effective way to make issues known to our representatives on the Hill and add that personal touch of, hey, this is my family, my operation, my neighbors, my community. This is how this issue is affecting me. Dusty Weis Certainly NCGA does a great job of taking its members from the field and putting them outside of their representatives doors, knocking on doors, making phone calls, sending emails, connecting with our delegations. It's important work. But as we look to the year ahead, Wayne, I imagine that you probably feel the way sitting in DC as I do sitting here in Wisconsin. I'm not the kind of guy who's going to try to guess what's going to happen next in DC, but can you give us the lay of the land a little bit at least on how these extensions may or may not move forward? Wayne Stoskopf Absolutely. Given the amount of tax provisions that expire this year or have already expired, there will be legislation to extend them. The legislative vehicle that they're talking about using is budget reconciliation, which can rely just on a simple majority in the House and in the Senate. So it really unlocks the potential for larger pieces of legislation impacting spending and also revenue to go through with a simple majority and can skip the cloture process in the Senate. So there will be a big package called budget reconciliation put together throughout the spring and hopefully move in the summer. Everyone in Congress knows that business certainty is really key and they want to get ahead of the deadline of December 31st as much as possible. So we've heard everyone from president Trump to members of Congress talk about one big, beautiful bill. That's the focus right now, including tax in that conversation to get business certainty across the finish line as quickly as possible. Dusty Weis Well, and we know that as that situation continues to develop, you'll keep us posted from D.C. Certainly we'll continue to use the podcast as a vehicle to keep folks informed as well. But also check out NCGA.com. Make sure you're subscribed to the newsletter so you're getting the minute by minute updates as well. Because this is ultimately an issue that is really, really important to growers. It's also really, really convoluted. And so we really appreciate the two of you sharing your expertise today to get us caught up on these tax policy issues. Andy Jobman from Gothenburg, Nebraska, and Wayne Stoskopf from our DC office. Thank you both for joining us here on the Cobcast. Andy Jobman Thanks for having us. Dusty Weis And thank you for listening. We hope you'll join us again next month for another episode of the Cobcast: Inside the Grind with the National Corn Growers Association. As a quick reminder, while Andy and Wayne might know a lot about this stuff, nothing that we've discussed today should be construed as financial advice. Please try to remember that and make sure you're meeting with an actual finance advisor to stay on top of the latest tax implications of the changes in D.C. policy. If you are on X, you can follow @NationalCorn for more news and updates from NCGA. Visit ncga.com to sign up for the association's email newsletter and make sure you're following this show in your favorite podcast app. The Cobcast is brought to you by the National Corn Growers Association and it's produced by Podcamp Media. Branded podcast production for businesses, podcampmedia.com. For the National Corn Growers Association, thanks for listening. I'm Dusty Weis.
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The Office of the United States Trade Representative on Thursday released final actions related to Section 301 fees on Chinese-made vessels arriving at American ports, making significant changes from the initial proposed actions. The development comes after the National Corn Growers Association (NCGA) called for USTR to consider the impacts that the fees would have on farmers and provided suggestions for improvement. While direct impacts on agriculture are still being determined, the final proposal is a step in the right direction to mitigate impacts on shipments of commodities, which directly impact corn growers, say agricultural leaders. “Our concern all along has been that any fees placed on Chinese vessels could be passed on to American farmers who rely on those ships to export corn,” said NCGA President Kenneth Hartman Jr. “While we are still working to understand how this new version will impact the corn industry, we believe this final action is more workable than the initial proposal.” NCGA estimated that the original proposal could have cost corn growers as much as $0.64 per bushel, which translates to 14% higher costs from current price levels. The added cost had the potential to reduce U.S. corn exports and impede market access. Instead, the released action specifies that fees will be assessed on Chinese vessel operators and Chinese-built ships per voyage, not per port call, as was originally proposed. Additionally, fees cannot be imposed more than five times per year. And short voyages, vessels arriving empty, and vessels carrying less than 50,000 tons will be exempt from the fees. The action will occur in two phases to allow businesses to adjust, and for the first 180 days, applicable fees will be set at zero. The restrictions are an outgrowth of the Trump administration’s efforts to address a report showing China has given its shipbuilding and maritime industry an unfair advantage through financial support, barriers for foreign firms, intellectual property theft, procurement policies and forced technology transfers. To address the issue, the Office of the United States Trade Representative issued a proposal in March to place fees and other restrictions on Chinese vessels.
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EP. 53 - Tax Policy Updates Corn Farmers Need to Know About in 2025 (Tue, 15 Apr 2025)
We need our reps in D.C. to protect the helpful policies and throw out the bad ones. It’s tax day, but some of the important policies that are helping your farm maintain profitability are in jeopardy if the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2017 is allowed to expire this year. Provisions like the Qualified Business Income Deduction, 100% Bonus Depreciation, and the increased Estate Tax Exemption are critically important to producers across the country. So in this episode, we’re talking with two of NCGA’s foremost experts about how these policies benefit farmers… and what we can do to preserve them. Andy Jobman is a farmer from Gothenburg, Nebraska, and chairs NCGA’s Risk Management Action Team, which has been researching the effects of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act at the farm gate and building up our case to preserve it. And Wayne Stoskopf is NCGA’s Director of Public Policy, serving as the D.C. staff liaison for all matters involving tax policy. Together, they’ll explain why farmers can’t afford to lose these tax protections, what it means for rural communities, and why it’s critical for growers to contact their legislators about this issue. Direct Share Link: https://cms.megaphone.fm/channel/ncga?selected=PDM234462094 Transcript Andy Jobman Too many instances in the past, the tax burden of the next generation picking up the farm was too great. And you saw lots of people move off the farm. The Tax Cuts and Jobs Act has been big for America's farmers. Wayne Stoskopf So we want to make sure that we're talking about the importance of extending these provisions, keeping bad ideas out of the tax code. Dusty Weis Hello and welcome to the Cobcast: Inside the Grind with the National Corn Growers Association. This is where leaders, growers and stakeholders in the corn industry can turn for big picture conversations about the state of the industry and its future. From the fields of the corn belt to the DC Beltway, we're making sure the growers who feed America have a say in the issues that are important to them with key leaders who are shaping the future of agriculture. So make sure you're following this show and your favorite podcast app and sign up for the National Corn Growers Association newsletter at NCGA.com. I'm Dusty Weis and I'm just going to go ahead and wish everybody a happy Tax Day here… in that Tax Day could ever be a happy occurrence for anybody. But a quick reminder as well that if you haven't checked that off your to-do list yet, go ahead and step away from the podcast for a moment and finish up your duties there. We'll be here. We're not going to be talking about anything that is necessarily timely to your 2024 taxes yet. We're going to be looking to the future of tax policy and what it means for growers and some of the pieces that are set to expire this year with the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act. Joining us today to talk about these important issues are Nebraska farmer and chair of NCGA's Risk Management Action Team, Andy Jobman. Andy and his team have been preparing for this year's big tax conversations on Capitol Hill for a while now. Andy, first and foremost, great to see you again. It's been a minute. Last time we talked, we were actually in DC out there advocating on behalf of growers on a different issue, trade with Mexico, but it's good to see you again. How are things out in Gothenburg? Andy Jobman Hey, thanks for having me on. Great to see you again too. Yeah, things are well out here in Gothenburg and central Nebraska. Finally had some decent rain last night. I'm looking outside to a few puddles and it's been a while for some rain as well. Dusty Weis Thank goodness. You went from an unplantably dry mess to an unplantably wet mess. That's exciting times. Andy Jobman Yep, I'd rather have that kind of mess. Dusty Weis That's good, that's good. You'll have some work to do real soon, I bet. And joining Andy today, of course, is NCGA's policy expert on tax and farm policy, Wayne Stoskopf. He'll be helping give us the big picture for where this tax talk might lead and why the term “budget reconciliation” should be on our radar. So Wayne, thank you so much for joining us. Wayne Stoskopf Happy to be here. Thank you. Dusty Weis So Andy, can you get us kicked off a little bit by telling us more about your operation in Nebraska? Your family's been out there working that land for a while. Tell us more about what you're growing out there and what you're seeing. Andy Jobman So our operations, a family operation, like over 90 % of the farming operations across the US. I farm with my younger brother and my dad. And we raise food grade white and yellow corn for Frito Lay. So all of our corn actually goes toward human consumption through Frito Lay's various products like Doritos and Tostitos. We also rotate our corn with soybeans, grow a little bit of alfalfa to support our cow-calf operation as well. So a medium sized operation by any argument’s sake, almost a hundred percent irrigated. We do not get enough rain to rely on that alone. So most of our crops are supplemented with some sort of irrigation. A lot of that is center pivot irrigation. So, you know, as you're flying across the Midwest, going from coast to coast, you see the circles down below. That's us. Dusty Weis Bullseye marks the spot, right? Well, Andy, and I've got to say it's a beautiful farming operation as well. I was actually just telling Wayne that your operation in Gothenburg, Nebraska will forever be representative in my mind of NCGA because when I started working with NCGA, golly, like six years ago now... the first thing that I saw was a bunch of video footage that Neil Caskey sent me to edit together for a web video, and it was all shot on your farm. And so it really helped me get my head in the game as far as what's going on with our members, what their operations look like. But from what you do out there to what you do with NCGA, what got you interested then in NCGA's risk management work? Andy Jobman Well, that's a good question. Previously, I was on our stewardship action team and was involved in conservation programs, different cost share programs that allowed farmers to implement sustainability practices on their farms. And some of that is tied back into the farm bill. After I kind of went through the leadership position on that, I had an interest in the risk management team, you know, also very heavily involved in the farm bill. Also involved with taxes as well. And, you know, when I started farming professionally, like, you know, not just carpet farming back in the day, but when I started farming professionally, we were going through a lot of changes in farm programs. That's, you know, when ARC and PLC kind of came into being. And so I remember as a young producer, going through all of the education events that universities and different extension offices would put on to educate producers on here's this new safety net program and how it works. And here's everything you need to know about which one to sign up for. I just remember that being a really kind of confusing and also fascinating time all at once and thought, you know, “Hey, this sounds like a really interesting team to be a part of since that's exactly what they focus on.” Dusty Weis It might not be the thing that most growers want to take an interest in, but where the rubber meets the road of the black and the red in the ledger at the end of the year, it's one of the most important things. Andy Jobman It really is, you know. We farm to survive on our own. We want good markets, want strong demand for our products and high prices. But ultimately we do need to have that safety net program to keep American farms in business from one year to the next and from one generation to the next. Yeah. Like you said, it's not obviously the most glamorous or exciting topics to talk about every single day, but they are very important and do require a lot of expertise and I'm thankful to have Wayne on staff. He's the man when it comes to not only the programs that we have, but also kind of the history and how we got to where we're at. So we certainly couldn't do what we do without Wayne's input. Dusty Weis I can imagine you guys have gotten to know each other real well over the past few years here, but Wayne, as the staff lead for risk management, working with Andy and the risk management action team, also as our resident expert on the subject, how do you help the team determine what to focus on for the future? And how early did you have to start preparing for tax policy changes that might be ahead here in 2025? Wayne Stoskopf It's certainly a balancing act of all sorts of farm policy, tax policy, changes in administrations, the political landscape. And we try to sprinkle in topics ahead of time. So it's not a big kind of bolus all at once where you're trying to digest everything all in one conversation. I'd say on tax policy, we really started digging in early in 2024 and then set up a project that then could provide us more information throughout the year as we were thinking about Congress beginning to put the wheels into place for this train that's going to leave the station later this year. A lot of folks are saying it's the Super Bowl of Tax for 2025. And we were in the mode for the last two years that we were in the Farm Bill. It's the Super Bowl of Farm Bill policy. It's the big arenas. So we've been trying to do both walk and chew gum and really, it took a lot of effort to just be at the point where we could start calling the plays in the Super Bowl that is happening now. Dusty Weis So tell me a little bit more about the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act then. This is something that's important to farmers, but why is that? Let's lay it out on the table what the benefits have been for America's growers here. Andy Jobman Yeah. So the tax cuts and jobs act has been a really big, helpful policy item for America's farmers and ranchers. This comes as no surprise to any producers that are listening, but farming is a very capital intensive industry. Land is expensive. Machinery is expensive. All of the inputs are expensive. You know, when you start talking about running these operations as businesses, tax is a huge item, especially when you're passing an operation from one generation to the next. And recently, you know, we've had some lower commodity prices, right? So profitability hasn't been there. We've relied on not only our farm programs, but also lot of disaster and economic assistance programs to help shore up these losses across much of the growing regions across the United States. Obviously, we're always looking for new markets, new opportunities to grow that demand. Biofuels and trade and livestock consumption are three main buckets of where corn grain goes, right? And, you know, one exciting opportunity we have is sustainable aviation fuel possibly in the future. So that's one opportunity we have. But the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act has really helped provide a lot of security and stability in terms of having an operation decide, okay, how am going to keep this operation profitable? And how am I going to keep this operation moving from one generation to the next? Dusty Weis And Wayne, from your perspective in DC, the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, this is something that's been on the books for a number of years here, but it's due to expire, right? It was put forward as sort of a temporary provision here. When is it due to expire and what sort of deadline are we facing? Wayne Stoskopf Yeah, the provisions that Andy's talking about expire December 31st, stroke of midnight, the end of this year 2025. The Tax Cuts and Jobs Act overall also included a lot of really good provisions that have supported the economy on the corporate side. And many of those provisions are permanent, but the provisions on the individual side that impacts more of our farms, ranches, small businesses, a lot of those were set to expire at the end of this year. A few like bonus depreciation were stair-stepped down. So we've already seen an impact in the past couple of years of those provisions expiring a bit earlier. Dusty Weis So Andy, then as we're coming up on that expiration date and talks are getting underway in D.C. to extend potentially the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, what are some of the provisions that are a top priority for corn growers? Andy Jobman Yeah. So about a year ago, we started a study to really evaluate the most important ones to corn farmers and used example farms from across the country. Some of them are our own membership and looked at different sizes of farms too, right? Because there's all different kinds of farming operations out there. There's single household farm, multi-generational farms as well where you got several generations, several households living off of the same operation. And then operations even bigger than that, that have a lot of hired help. So we really broke it into three different categories based off of size and then evaluated how both extending and repealing these different facets of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act would affect each one of those operations. And I don't think necessarily we found anything to be incredibly surprising. Rather it solidified our arguments and the importance of these different tax code items, and maybe emphasized which ones are maybe even more important or had a greater effect than maybe even we imagined they would. Dusty Weis Well, why don't we start with the qualified business income deduction? What is that and how does that hit the bottom line at a family farm? Andy Jobman Yeah. So the qualified business income deduction allows an operation to deduct 20% of an income as a qualified deduction. And that helps level the playing field a little bit for farms that are not organized basically as a corporation, which is the majority of farms across the United States. And as we looked at that 20% sounds like a pretty good number, right? Like that's a sizable amount of any person's income, but really in our study, the effects of that actually wound up to be two to three times that in terms of what the actual dollar amount meant to different operations. And of course that varies a lot from year to year. In some instances that 20% may not be that big in terms of dollars. Maybe it wasn't a very profitable year, maybe it was a drought year or we had a hail event or, you know, crop insurance event where all of a sudden the income wasn't there. And so we found that item to really vary a lot from year to year and was very dependent upon the events and economic situation that each farm found itself in from year to year. But yeah, it was still a very important asset for each farm to be able to take advantage of. Dusty Weis Okay, there's another provision out there that we want to protect. It's called the 100% bonus depreciation. What's that one and what does that mean? I recognize that term. My accountant has said that to me, but I don't know what the heck it is. Andy Jobman Yeah. So depreciation is something that farmers take advantage of. And really many businesses across America take advantage of, right? So that's the ability to deduct the cost of a capital purchase. Say it's a large piece of machinery, like a combine or a tractor, or even a storage shop and deduct that cost over time. Well, the 100% allows you to deduct that amount in the year that it was placed in service. So like, say I bought a tractor last week, right? If I, at the end of the year, have had a really great year and I have higher than expected income, I can elect to take that depreciation 100% in this year. What that allows me to do is offset some of my tax liability that I would have this year, right? So rather than write my check and then pay my taxes, I'm going to in turn say, Hey, I'm actually going to count all of this year's purchase of that tractor in this year. And in some instances, this comes into play maybe more so towards the end of the year after I've evaluated what my profitability is for this year. Machinery is expensive, large items that we use every day. They wear out, they need to be replaced, right? We want to keep up with the most accurate and precise and efficient technology as we can because, you know, farming is a very small margin game. And so they can spend that dollar on main street America at their local dealership. That dollar is multiplied through the local economy. And that's why that 100% deduction exists. Taxes are important. We need tax income to fund defense, fund the government for roads, bridges, you know, what have you. But at the end of the day, if you find yourself in this position and also are in need of making a capital investment in your operation, here's a great way to offset some of that tax income but still be able to keep your operation moving forward and support local businesses at the same time. Dusty Weis Right, the grower gets a new piece of equipment, which very often is more efficient or even better for the environment. Let's make sure we don't miss that. But also the local dealer, they're able to create jobs of the people that sell and maintain that equipment. And then on up to the equipment manufacturer, the people that build that combine too, they're moving another piece of equipment out of the factory and helping support those good factory jobs as well. So it really runs all the way through the economy. Andy Jobman Yeah, one interesting thing that we found, you know, one might think like, well, this is really benefiting, just the very large producers. But honestly, even in our study, small and medium farms showed a 100 to 300% increase in tax liability when we didn't have this available. And so these farms would be burdened with much higher tax liabilities, still would have to be needing to purchase that new tractor, but all of a sudden weren't able to, right? Because they weren't able to offset that taxable income with the purchase. So it affected both small, medium and large operations, which I think was maybe a little bit of a surprise, just in terms of how much it actually impacted farms of all scales. Dusty Weis Yeah, that's an incredible figure right there, that 100 to 300 percent times tax liability. I mean, that can be the difference between profitability and a very, very bad year for a lot of folks. But another provision that we're interested in protecting here, of course, is the higher estate tax exemption. Now, this comes into play when an operation transitions between generations. Can you tell us a little bit about this and why it's important to preserve? Andy Jobman Yeah, absolutely. And in order to kind of understand this, we kind of have to walk through a little bit of where we were before and where we are, and then potentially where we're going. So before the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, an individual would be exempt upon their death, or they could exempt up to $5 million of assets when they transfer that asset onto their heirs. The Tax Cuts and Jobs Act effectively doubled that to $10 million per individual, and then indexed it for inflation. So really eventually that 10 million becomes 13 million as an individual, 26 million as a married couple. Sounds like a huge amount of money. And it is. Dusty Weis It would be a big pile of money, but we're talking about assets here. Talking about the ground that you grow in. We're talking about the machine shed out back. And it's not that those things have gotten bigger or nicer over the years. It's that the value has gone up. So when these transitions happen, it's not like somebody's getting a huge pile of money. They're getting the same operation that's been there for generations. It's just valued so much more now because of inflation. Andy Jobman That's 100 % correct. To an outsider looking in, it seems like an outrageous figure, right? But when you start breaking that down, one average field out here in central Nebraska on the market today would bring well in excess of $1 million. That's just one field. Most average operations probably have 10, 12, 15 fields, of an average size. And so you start adding that up. Plus, like you said, the cost of machinery, buildings, the value of everything is always going up. And so to be able to pass that on without having to start over with every generation is really important. This is also set to expire this year and it rolls back to the original amount, indexed for inflation would be about 7 million. So that's a huge difference, right? When you're talking about tax planning, family succession planning, like these are plans that most families and operations don't change daily, right? We can't change daily. Like most decisions in a farming operation about renting land or making a purchase of machinery or making an additional purchase of land. Like these are very, very long term plans. In many instances it’s not just planning for like my generation, but also planning for my kids' generation should they choose to come back and farm. Dusty Weis Well, and when you're talking about that estate tax exemption, that could be the difference between the next generation taking up the reins and continuing the family farm or even just throwing their hands up and walking away and saying, “I'm done. I'm to go get a job in town.” Andy Jobman Yeah. That's exactly right. Too many instances in the past, the tax burden of the next generation picking up the farm was too great. And you saw lots of people move off the farm, which is really unfortunate because we lost a lot of really great people in rural America and there's fewer people. Farms have to get bigger in order to survive. It's not necessarily that farms want to be thousands and thousands and thousands of acres big. Like that takes a lot of management, takes a lot of manpower. Lot of stress, a lot of risk. But unfortunately, like that's the situation we're in. It take some economies of scale to make these operations run. One interesting thing I thought that came out of this study that we did, when we looked at across America and all facets of businesses and lifestyles, when you compare the number of transfers of assets that are affected by the estate tax and compare that to agriculture, this instance affects agriculture twice as much as the average American household across the United States. And I think that just underscores what we've been talking about this entire segment is how capital intensive agriculture is and how important it is to be able to pass on these assets from one generation to the next in order to preserve these family farms and preserve these businesses. Dusty Weis So now, Wayne, as our expert in DC on these things, I know that we touched a little bit earlier about the stepped up basis, which is above and beyond just extending these key TCGA provisions. But what are some of those other proposed changes that corn growers are trying to defend against right now? Wayne Stoskopf When looking at the landscape, a lot of the changes that Andy's mentioned are pieces that will expire if Congress doesn't act. But the stepped up basis is part of the permanent law, but it has been looked at for changes to raise additional revenue for the federal government. And so we saw a serious push probably in 2021, about four years ago, to change the way the capital gains rates are structured and to eliminate stepped up basis. And while we don't think it's going to be part of the just straight extensions, we are still messaging against that proposal, which would negatively impact so many farms and that business planning. So we want to make sure that as we're educating new members of Congress and talking about the importance of extending provisions that we're also not missing that opportunity to educate on behalf of the importance of some of those permanent provisions and maintaining stepped up basis. Dusty Weis It sounds like we've really got to play defense in addition to trying to get the extension to the TCGA stuff as well. Andy, as far as corn growers’ priorities long term, we can do tax policy. We can focus on playing defense against some of these provisions that also might come into play that would cause real problems for us. But at the end of the day, the best way to improve the economic outlook for farmers is just to grind more corn. And tax policy can really stimulate demand in the long run too. How does that work? Andy Jobman Yeah, it sure can. As we're looking forward towards expanding that corn grind, there have been several ideas floated around for stimulating new methods of utilizing corn as a resource, particularly for sustainable aviation fuel and a lot of these next generation fuel ideas in terms of increasing blends at the pump, providing more opportunity for consumers to participate in the usage of a clean burning environmentally homegrown fuel. And so this would be a much more of an offensive forward-looking idea of let's incentivize folks to come up and participate in the corn market, expand usage, and at the same time, you know, really improve our energy portfolio for the United States and eventually globally too. Aviation affects everyone across the globe. So does liquid fuels. We've seen countless examples, whether it be economic or weather related, where we still are very dependent upon liquid fuels and probably will be for the foreseeable future. And if we can improve that system by including a cleaner burning renewable source, by all means, why shouldn't we do that? And so incentivizing industry to expand on that, I think is an excellent opportunity, increases jobs, increases demand for corn, creates a more profitable and economically viable midsection of the United States that also affects the pocketbooks of everyday Americans from coast to coast. Dusty Weis So certainly this is a time of year when most growers are focused on getting a crop in the ground. But it's also really, really important right now for growers to make their voices heard on these topics. We're lucky to have folks like Wayne out in the DC office that kind of manage the day to day of this. But corn growers and their supporters really need to carry this message to the offices on the hill. Yeah, Wayne? Wayne Stoskopf Absolutely. And we've launched a call to action earlier this year to provide some sample messages from growers that can go directly to your member of Congress. Emails, calls, texts are all fantastic. And of course, as members are back in their districts and in the states, it's a great opportunity to talk about the importance of extending these provisions, keeping bad ideas out of the tax code and for some of the tax incentive places, trying some new things too. Andy Jobman The most important voice on Capitol Hill when it comes to agriculture issues is the farmer. You know, we have Wayne up there to keep tabs on everyone in DC and on the Hill on a daily basis, but ultimately the most important voice is the farmers, right? That voice of experience, people that are living and breathing and getting personally affected by all the decisions, right? So far on this call to action, we've had pretty good response. We've had over a thousand folks participating. If you haven't participated, be sure to visit ncga.com, make your voice heard there. We've had really great staff that have made it super easy to get involved with the click of a button and a few strokes of the keypad to personalize your message if you would like to. And so we've found that to be a very, very effective way to make issues known to our representatives on the Hill and add that personal touch of, hey, this is my family, my operation, my neighbors, my community. This is how this issue is affecting me. Dusty Weis Certainly NCGA does a great job of taking its members from the field and putting them outside of their representatives doors, knocking on doors, making phone calls, sending emails, connecting with our delegations. It's important work. But as we look to the year ahead, Wayne, I imagine that you probably feel the way sitting in DC as I do sitting here in Wisconsin. I'm not the kind of guy who's going to try to guess what's going to happen next in DC, but can you give us the lay of the land a little bit at least on how these extensions may or may not move forward? Wayne Stoskopf Absolutely. Given the amount of tax provisions that expire this year or have already expired, there will be legislation to extend them. The legislative vehicle that they're talking about using is budget reconciliation, which can rely just on a simple majority in the House and in the Senate. So it really unlocks the potential for larger pieces of legislation impacting spending and also revenue to go through with a simple majority and can skip the cloture process in the Senate. So there will be a big package called budget reconciliation put together throughout the spring and hopefully move in the summer. Everyone in Congress knows that business certainty is really key and they want to get ahead of the deadline of December 31st as much as possible. So we've heard everyone from president Trump to members of Congress talk about one big, beautiful bill. That's the focus right now, including tax in that conversation to get business certainty across the finish line as quickly as possible. Dusty Weis Well, and we know that as that situation continues to develop, you'll keep us posted from D.C. Certainly we'll continue to use the podcast as a vehicle to keep folks informed as well. But also check out NCGA.com. Make sure you're subscribed to the newsletter so you're getting the minute by minute updates as well. Because this is ultimately an issue that is really, really important to growers. It's also really, really convoluted. And so we really appreciate the two of you sharing your expertise today to get us caught up on these tax policy issues. Andy Jobman from Gothenburg, Nebraska, and Wayne Stoskopf from our DC office. Thank you both for joining us here on the Cobcast. Andy Jobman Thanks for having us. Dusty Weis And thank you for listening. We hope you'll join us again next month for another episode of the Cobcast: Inside the Grind with the National Corn Growers Association. As a quick reminder, while Andy and Wayne might know a lot about this stuff, nothing that we've discussed today should be construed as financial advice. Please try to remember that and make sure you're meeting with an actual finance advisor to stay on top of the latest tax implications of the changes in D.C. policy. If you are on X, you can follow @NationalCorn for more news and updates from NCGA. Visit ncga.com to sign up for the association's email newsletter and make sure you're following this show in your favorite podcast app. The Cobcast is brought to you by the National Corn Growers Association and it's produced by Podcamp Media. Branded podcast production for businesses, podcampmedia.com. For the National Corn Growers Association, thanks for listening. I'm Dusty Weis.
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